A couple of months ago, I saw Harry Butt speak at a Nicer Tuesdays event about failure.
Struck by his humility, humour and frankness. I knew I wanted to talk to Harry about his creative process. I met Harry at his studio in Hackney, where he drank a green tea and we spoke about childhoods spent on farms, working commercially and not dreaming.
Harry got his start as a Graphic Designer before he quickly made his way up in the world. Now, having worked with the likes of Tame Impala, Dua Lipa, Nike, Instagram and many more, I spoke to him right before he began his new role as Creative Director in an animation studio, which he was understandably chuffed about.
I also bullied him a little bit.Β Sorry Harry. Read on.
MK
Can you please tell me your name and occupation?
HARRY
I'm Harry Butt and I'm an Animation Director, soon to be a Creative Director, whatever that means.
MKΒ
That's a lofty title.
HARRYΒ
Yeah. It is, isn't it?Β
MK
Thatβs a title everybody wants
HARRY
Yeah, it is. Suddenly I'm worrying about my dress sense.
MK
You gotta go to A.P.C.Β
HARRY
Fucks sake. Iβll just look like every old Creative Director stalking Shoreditch High Street, you can spot them.
MK
I'm surprised though, that people still professionally use the term Creative Director because it's such an Instagram title now. Like, it's such a self-designated title.
HARRY
Oh, what? Because you can graduate and just be like, βOh I'm a Creative Director now.β
MK
Yeah, there'll be a 22 year old with a t-shirt business and theyβll say βI'm a Creative Director. Watch my drone videos.β
HARRY
Yeah, self-prescribed. That's fine.
MK
I hate to ask this question⦠But do you ever get tired of talking about your name?
HARRYΒ
No, I think it's really funny. I was lucky that I went to a tiny school and was only bullied a little bit about it. But because it was already thereβ¦
MK
Itβs too obvious.
HARRYΒ
Butt is a Pakistani name. Like, itβs the Pakistani Smith. I get stopped every time crossing the US border because Harry Butt is the name of a Pakistani terrorist.Β
MK
That didnβt come up on Google.
HARRY
Yeah. Good, itβs bad for my brand.Β
MK
You have really good SEO. Itβs just you and people talking about Harry Stylesβ butt.Β
HARRY
Yeah, I saw that. If you Google image my name, a picture of Harry Stylesβ butt comes up. I donβt know if itβs actually his. You canβt see his face. But thereβs a naked one out there.Β
MK
Really?Β
HARRY
I think it wouldβve blown up more if it was real.
MK
So, you grew up in a small town.Β
HARRY
Yeah I grew up in the middle of nowhere.
MK
You grew up on a farm outside of Grimsby.
HARRY
How did you know that? Did I say that?
MK
No.
HARRY
Grimsby is the town. It's like an ex-fishing town. And then the government restricted fishing and the industry went in the 60βs, 70βs, 80βs, and then it kind of became nothing.Β
MK
What kind of farm?
HARRY
Mostly arable, but we had cows and pigs and chickens. We got rid of the pigs because they just got a bit too smelly. And they started eating each other.Β
MK
The chickens??
HARRY
The pigs. The chickens were great.
MK
I had a pet chicken.Β
HARRY
What was it called?
MK
Chickpea. She got torn apart by the dogs. I also grew up around farms.Β
HARRY
What kind of dogs?Β
MK
They were just little mutts.Β
HARRY
Strays?
MK
They were our dogs but they acted like strays.
HARRY
R.I.P Chickpea. Iβm really sorry for the loss.Β
MK
Thank you. I feel like it's really brutal growing up on a farm.
HARRY
Thereβs a lot of death. My mum's really hard. And she was the farmer. We call her Dr. Death because she, like, puts down all of our animals, all of our pets, way before they need to. I got a text a couple of weeks ago on a Wednesday about one of our old-ish dogs called Charlie. She said, βCharlie's been going downhill all week. We took him to the vet. It was time.β But it was only Wednesday. He had two bad days, and she's like, βdie.β
If you show a limp around her... My stepdad is losing his balance and we were joking around that she was going to kill him.Β
How was it growing up for you on a farm? I know this isnβt how an interview works.Β
MK
I didn't really fit into the farming lifestyle. I was never a real country girl, I was always a little city girl. It's very funny because it's not really what my upbringing was like at all. It was very rough. Very nice, but very rough. There is a lot of death. Weβd go roo shooting on my Grandparentsβ farm.Β Β
HARRY
What?
MK
Yeah, shooting kangaroos. I wasnβt allowed to touch the gun. Obviously.Β
HARRY
Why did you shoot them? You eat them?
MK
No, they have parasites I think. Iβve only eaten kangaroo, like, once. Theyβre pests. Do you feel like growing up somewhere in the middle of nowhere made you more creative?
HARRY
Yeah, thatβs kind of what I was hinting at in my talk. Because of the lack of stimulus you end up being really deep in your own head, so I definitely think so.Β
There was a lot of labour involved in farming, like every evening and weekend there was the longest to-do list, especially around winter, and so youβd be outside clearing out a barn, or chopping wood or whatever, and that gives you loads of headspace. The more headspace you have as a kid, the more you're able to think.
MK
Itβs true, you do some little jobs and then you go jump on the trampoline for four hours. Did you grow up really close with your sisters?
HARRY
Yeah, really close. Theyβre a lot older. Iβm the kid, can you tell? I got parented by my two sisters because my Dad was working a lot, and my Mum too, especially in the summertime with the harvest.Β
MK
Are your family creative people?Β
HARRY
Not really. My dad is like a musician, but not in a professional way. On my Mumβs side itβs farming all the way through. Very practical. Very hard working. And I think that's probably what I took from it.Β
MK
Yeah, I think you can tell in your work that you do have that kind of outdoorsy background because everything that's natural is so hyper realistic, and then you have these animals and people that are really exaggerated and not very lifelike at all.
HARRY
I think that's more to do with ability.Β
MK
Are you really worried about your ability? That's insane.Β
HARRY
Yeah, I can't do people very well. Never have.
MK
It gives you more of a distinctive aesthetic anyway.Β
HARRY
I hope so.
MK
How old are you?
HARRY
28.
MK
Youβre so young. Youβre already so successful. You have a very enviable list of clients that youβve already worked with.
HARRY
I think being thrown in the deep end kind of makes you just fight really hard. I went freelance because I'd graduated uni and went to work for my favourite hero, old school graphic designer in New York. And then I came back to London and really missed New York. So I quit my job here because I got another job out there, but the visa was denied. Iβd already handed my notice in and the job was going to end in a couple of weeks. So I remember just being like, fuck it, I've got enough in my savings account to pay my rent for a month So Iβll give it a go for like one month. If I haven't got any money in, then I'll take a bar job or whatever and then get back into working.Β
And so it was just like, you had that one month rent buffer. Without it, you just have to just get into it and just reach out to those people. The fear of drowning is maybe where the clients came from, because Iβd made that choice.
MK
Was your visa denied because of the terrorist Harry Butt?
HARRY
I didn't think about that. I tried to get a graduate visa, you can do that if you're within a year of graduating. And I applied for it 366 days out. You know, I was like one day too late, which I didnβt realise. And I'd already quit.
MK
It's very lucky that you didn't get the visa.Β
HARRY
Do you reckon?
MK
I think so. Itβs like a Sliding Doors moment. You wouldnβt have gotten to do the Dua Lipa videoβ¦ Did you get to meet her?Β
HARRY
Yeah, we hang out all the time now.Β
MK
Really?
HARRY
No. I did a Tame Impala video and at the end of it, I texted my agent, βPlease, can I have his number?β and he wrote back βHahaha obviously not.β I was like, βWhat the fuck? Give me his number. I want to text him and say βThanks.β
MK
So rude. I mean, he's Australian, I can maybe pull some strings. There's not that many Australians in the world.
HARRY
Thereβs only a handful, right? He wouldnβt even remember it.Β
MK
Itβs OK, heβs from Perth. We donβt claim Perth.
But the reason I wanted to talk to you is because of your talk on failure, you had a very different interpretation to a lot of other people about what failure is. It was more of a failure of one conviction or practice.Β
Because the film that I watched was quite good. I feel like a lot of people would be really intimidated to be shown this piece of work and say that you thought it wasβ
HARRY
A failure. Yeah.
MK
So why did you think that it was such a failure of you personally?
HARRY
I was really conscious of presenting it. I was like, this is something that I think is a failure, itβs not objective. There are a lot of people that go to those talks are students. If I saw that film when I was 21, I would never think that I would ever be able to make that film. And so if someone presented that to me and said, βThis is shitβ, then you'd want to give up. I was really conscious of that.Β
I'd only shown one person, and he's in my studio, and he's a bit younger, and he's like, newer to 3D. And he said the exact same thing, so I was really conscious of that. But I thought it was bad just because it's actually so easy to make something look good in 3D. It actually isn't that hard. You can follow a tutorial and make something really beautiful and glossy and shiny and photo-real in a day or two if you hadn't ever used software, just watch YouTube tutorials. And so to not progress beyond that point after six years was depressing, to not be able to be telling stories as well.Β
Obviously, the amazing work that you see, there are themes behind it, there'll be a story writer or someone who's amazing at characters, someone who specialises in that. and I try to do it myself. So that obviously is always gonna hold you back. But as soon as I started taking on the role of Animation Director, it didn't matter what I could actually do in the software, what mattered was the stories that I was coming up with. It didnβt just matter what I could do with the software anymore.Β
It was just such a shit story, like, what the fuck is going on?Β
MK
So that⦠That was the full story?
HARRY
Exactly, Right? What happened? I made it, I changed it, I made it, I changed it. The third time I made it I was just going to delete it, I wasnβt going to show it to anyone. The talk was coming up, and I sat down and wrote the whole talk in an afternoon. I thought, βThis is actually really good. Why do I hate it?β
It was so positive. I didnβt know how positive Iβd feel about it until I wrote the talk, and Iβm so grateful. Itβs my favourite thing Iβve ever made, because it taught me a lot.Β
Itβs hard. Doing a talk is so self-indulgent, right? Saying βMe, me, me, this is what I've learned.β and then going even deeper into it. I felt very self-conscious during the talk. You have to get over the fact that you're talking about yourself, because that's what everyone is there to expect. It's not a natural state to just ramble about yourself. Thereβs a fear that what youβre saying is not a fully-formed thought. Like, if you question anything I say Iβll crumble at any point.Β
MK
Sounds like youβve got some self esteem issues.
HARRY
Yeah! Weβre learning about ourselves.
MK
I don't know if anyone would have the impetus to create anything if they didn't have some kind of self esteem issue. Like, I feel like if you had a perfectly formed sense of self, you'd be an account manager at Deloitte. You wouldnβt be making animated films. You wouldn't feel a need to prove yourself creatively.Β
HARRY
Yeah, it's true. Itβs definitely a drive to do better if you hate yourself.Β
MK
Otherwise youβd be doing CrossFit at 6am. You wouldn't be up at night agonising about your creative decisions. But I do wonder, because you have been so successful, and you are so young, from an external perspective anyway, does that kind of trap you a little bit?Β
HARRY
Iβd feel trapped if I was doing one specific thing over and over again, a lot of illustrators especially known for their thing, and then they get really hot and they get commissioned for Nike and some amazing billboard in New York or whatever, and then it just kind of dies down.
I would feel pressure if I'd put myself in a really narrow hole, but I think that I've always kept it pretty open. I'm actually looking forward to being really open to doing that, because it might help me get over the self esteem issues.Β
MK
I donβt know about that. The format that you work in (3D) is kind of a newer form of media, a newer art form, especially with social media. Do you think itβs hard to judge its merit?
HARRY
I think itβs just another visual version of loads of stuff thatβs come before. Animation is quite old, and itβs great, because people have passed down the knowledge from film. But, itβs getting pretty fucking stale, even if itβs new. It feels pretty same-y.Β
MK
Why?Β
HARRY
I'm really in it because obviously I follow all these people that do it. But I just see the same stuff over and over. It's really depressing. And everyone who I talk to is saying the same thing. Do you not think?Β
MK
Kinda. I feel like itβs so easy for people to cling to one aesthetic, and then everybody feels like they have to glom onto that, because thatβs what is trendy. Especially on social media. You see these graphic design trends that are cycled out so intensely, and then nobody has a super ownable aesthetic, itβs replicated.Β
HARRY
Exactly. Someone will do something amazing, like a music video that everyone has watched, then wave one isΒ people replicating it in their own work, then wave two is that someone makes a YouTube tutorial of how to do it, and then, a year later, everyone's doing it.Β
MK
When I was in advertising, you couldn't legitimise your own expression without having to back it up, without having to have a mood board, without having to have, like, three examples of it working for somebody else. I think it's really bad from a creative standpoint.
HARRY
Super toxic, and all the ideas come from art, pieces of music, things where you canβt always come up with those examples.Β
MK
There's no belief that you could conceive of something different, and that it would work, because the metric is always going off what you could see when youβre scrolling on your phone.Β
HARRY
Itβs just one big circle jerk of bullshit.
MK
Yeah. Would you ever call yourself an artist?
HARRY
Iβd love to, yeah.Β
MK
Whatβs stopping you?
HARRY
No, I never would because ultimately, I'm like, super happy being a commercial animator, artist, whatever. At the end of the day. I'm always following a brief, apart from that frog film, I haven't made anything just for myself in years. I'm very fine with that. I think a lot of people prang out a bit and convince themselves they're artists, but only work on commercial briefs. That's fine. We have to pay rent, the reality of living is that you have to be commercially angled to do whatever you do. There's no shame in that.Β
I've always enjoyed working with the brief as well. My favourite bit is when someone comes to you, and it may be quite dry, quite a boring brand, but they're quite big or whatever, but my favourite bit is coming up with another idea that is kind of on the fringes of what they suggested. Then just getting them really excited, getting them really worked up, like let's do it, let's do it! It's really fun to push people.Β
That's the fun bit about being commercial rather than being an artist, because you can take a little seed and make itΒ a different way and get them on board a bit.Β
MK
There are guard rails.
HARRY
Very narcissistic, but I love getting people excited. Itβs so much fun.
MK
Thatβs the self esteem issues againβ¦Β Β
HARRY
Fuck.
MK
I feel like it's funny, people still now talk about selling out. Is there an option to not? No.Β
HARRY
What is selling out, how do you define it?
MK
I think itβs just going against artistic integrity to pay the rent. It's a very lofty ideal, to be able to live without selling out.
HARRY
For sure. Yeah, you need to pay rent. But then if you're doing okay. But if you're doing all right, and you're making good work, then like making an extra million pounds or something like that, that's a level of selling out. I feel like if youβre making good work and not really getting paid for it, and then start to get paid for it, that's just sensible.
MK
I felt like design is more intentional than art anyway. If you're an artist, you can come up with your own mission statement. I think design has to be more thoughtful.
HARRY
At university I was so willing to sink time into an exhibition and really work it out. I've noticed that recently my patience for fine art exhibition work is really thin. If it's really successful then you shouldn't have to work really hard to work out what's going on. I went to the ICA. And there was a really goodβ¦ Actually, it wasnβt that good because I didn't really I didn't really like it. And it was really hard to get into.
Have you been?Β
MK
No.
HARRY
Wait until the next one.
MK
Yeah, well, it clearly sounds great.
HARRY
It is really good generally, but yeah, this exhibition was hard work. It's kind of exhausting. And yeah, what did you say design is more intentional than art?
Yeah, it feels like if I'm here to look at something for fun. I want to reach out a little bit to me first.
MK
Thatβs fair, I feel like youβre allowed to make demands on what you want to see and experience. Why does everything have to have meaning? You know how David Lynch refuses to explain what his films mean? Sometimes I think that sounds so freeing. You just do things for the sake of doing it.
HARRY
Yeah, it's difficult. I never really got lunch. And then one time I read, finally, his explanation for it. He's like, my films don't make sense. Does your life make sense when you wake up? Does that shit make sense? No. Why does film have to reflect life?Β
I still don't like it, but I get it.Β
MK
Heβs just doing whatever he wants. That's the final goal.
HARRY
There are no guardrails.
MK
It's very cerebral.Β
HARRY
People love it, though.
MK
I think it makes people feel smarter. That's the other thing. They're able to have an intellectual superiority, because itβs all so beyond interpretation. Yeah, that they can just accept it all.
I do feel so bad for David Lynch. Because everything in pop culture that doesn't make sense, or is confusing, it's βLynchianβ. People say, βThis TikTok is so Lynchianβ because it's just weird. Itβs not.Β
HARRY
I think he'd be alright with that.
MK
Me too. So, I don't really like the concept of artistic inspiration. You can be inspired by anything. Instead, what actually motivates you to create?
HARRY
Itβs really difficult because I'm just thinking of other projects that aren't commercial, because the motivation there is because you need to pay rent. And there's just an inherent satisfaction from making good work. That's what drives me to take on things. Iβve never asked myself that question.Β
MK
Why did you initially become a graphic designer?Β
HARRY
I think creating order clicked something in my brain. Creating visuals with order, it helped the world make sense to me. Using systems, and grids, and all those kinds of things. I guess I grew up in a chaotic, free, no rulesβ¦ I mean, definitely rules, but there was nothing clean or ordered or systematic about my childhood.Β
For ages I was really into typography, and making it perfect, doing all the kerning and getting it all exactly right. Creating order, that was so satisfying. And then I think that carried on into animation through creating super pleasing compositions, really symmetrical compositions, very centred compositions. Starting graphic design, finding a balance is really fun.Β
I don't know, I've always had that really central focus in a lot of my work. Whenever I visually imagined stuff, it's always been something coming or out of a centre. And that carried over from graphic design into animation. I guess it's the same kind of thing. Like, there's so much satisfaction from making something move in a satisfying way, in a new way, you can almost feel like you can feel it. Like, say, a circle moves across the screen and clicks into place, you could almost like that was in front of you. You could hear it and you could sense it, the motion is always going to be a caricature of a real version, but it feels tangible.
Itβs very satisfying to take the chaos of the world and select it down into a few movements, and nail it, making a really, really polished animation. I guess it's the satisfaction of ordering the world into its most streamlined version.Β
MK
Creative control?
HARRY
Control freak.Β
MK
Are you a control freak?Β
HARRY
I think itβs something I have to work on.
MK
Maybe that's just discipline.Β
HARRY
But whenever I work with other people, I love seeing what other people come up with. And then in my head, I get so excited. And I'm like, βOh my god, yeah. And then it can be like this, and this and this and this.β But that excitement is obviously control freak behaviour.
MK
Everything is control. The root of all suffering is not desire, itβs a need for control.
HARRY
Thatβs true.Β
MK
So you wake up in the morning and you write every day?
HARRY
Yeah. It started as a dream diary, because I wanted to remember my dreams, I never dream. I thought if I could have a tiny inkling of something that mightβve happened, it might coax it out. I just donβt dream. So I just ended up writing stories. For the past few years where Iβve moved around a bit Iβve got an ambient radio and I wake up to an ambient radio station and itβs actually so good. Music will always be the trigger for an idea. Weird freaky ambient songs start and I write, itβs always at the root of it.Β
But, when Iβve got shit going on, itβs a diary. Instead itβll be βYesterday I felt sad because of thisβ¦β Blah, blah, blah. Itβs been really good recently. The stories are on the back foot. Thereβs been a lot, a lot to get out.Β
MK
Still counts, itβs just a little true story.
HARRY
Because Iβm not very good at writing human dialogue, conversations, as soon as I realise something made me feel a particular way, thatβs actually a really good source for a story. As soon as you specify an action and a reaction and the emotion attached to it, sometimes I realise thatβs a really good story β then suddenly I become some sort of pig king in a swamp and my friend is a floating wizard or whatever.Β
MK
Would you ever do anything with your writing without visuals? Would you ever publish just writing?
HARRY
No, because anytime I read something thatβs really good I always want to give up so itβs never quite completed. Itβs a stepping stone, definitely.Β
MK
Whatβs your star sign?
HARRY
Aquarius.
MK
Of course.Β
HARRY
Really? What does that mean?
MK
A lot of creative people are Aquarius.Β
HARRY
Whatβs yours?
MK
Capricorn.
HARRY
And a lot of Capricorns are often�
MK
Mean.Β
HARRY
Iβm not picking up on that.
MK
Yeah, Iβm horrible. A lot of Capricorns are not creative, I would say. We have Michelle Obama. Dolly Parton is a Capricorn actually.Β
HARRY
Mmm I donβt know if Michelle Obama is creative or not.
MK
Sheβs got her own thing going on.
HARRY
Didnβt she write a book? Thatβs pretty cool. But youβre creative, youβre a writer.
MK
I am. Iβm probably a better writer than Michelle Obama.
HARRY
I would vouch for that.Β
MK
She has better arms though.
HARRY
Cβest la vie.Β
For a bonus round, hereβs Harryβs rates nβ hates.
π HARRY RATES π
Fresh flowers every week. Itβs an important Β£4 to spend in Morrisons to keep your life full of joy. Like Jennifer Coolidge in White Lotus, I live for beauty.
Oasis outdoor swimming pool in Covent Garden in London. Pulled my shoulder whilst spending an ambitious episode in the fast lane but really soaked in the atmosphere in the medium lane. Itβs a heated outdoor pool with a TV in the changing room so you can choose between that and enjoying the bold nudity.
Reference Point book shop. This place is 180 The Strandβs cooler younger sibling and feels like someoneβs front room without looking anything like one. The guy was very friendly to a curious hungover visitor and even offered a cup of tea whilst I browsed the part bookshop-part library.Β
π HARRY HATES π
Goblin-core. A message to the Goldsmithβs graduates in South East London; weβre ready and hopeful for what follows.
Cooking solo. But recently to a debilitating level; Iβm no longer able to cook a meal just for myself. When my housemates abandon me for the evening I spiral into an existential culinary meltdown. Me and my therapist are aware of the bigger picture here.
Teddy, the dog next door. A robust vocal box paired with the symptoms of Alzheimerβs.Β
xxx